Thursday, July 06, 2006
Chinapol, Shove it! In Defense of Philip Cunningham
12:26 PM /
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14 Comments:
While I agree with Joe here I think the entire advertising of this "internal" matter is ridiculous. Flaming and arguments on BBSs, forums and mailing lists happen all the time and to air them in public is juvenile. I do not mean that Joe is juvenile :-) and I don't want a war of words over that, but these things happen all the time and though people are angry and upset, it just shows how children never grow up.
what a surprise. one yang rui sycophant supporting another. yang rui is without question the worst interviewer.presenter I have encountered in over three decades of whatching broadcast journalism. He wanted to be China's Jeremy Paxman but forgot that to achieve this he would need to possess talent, style and humor. Poor guy has none. I sincerely hope you do not use him as a mdoel for your students, otherwise the future in this country is doomed.
i have not read this thread in full, neither do I need to. I am sure it is full of the usual bosco macho hunter thompson wannabee nonsense. the moment i saw the words yand rui, the integrity of the argument was lost. i couldn't give two hoots about chinapol or waht it says about cunningham, but the link to this blog spoiled my perusal of danwei so I felt compelled to reply
I politely disagree with Joseph, but respect his opinions, as always. Let me look at just one paragraph:
I don't have the time, space, civility nor objectivity to go into the full spectrum of vitriol caused by Phil being tossed out of this academic circle-jerk, and his impassioned response to it, other than to say that he has some very strong feelings about how his native land, America, is behaving both at home and abroad under this administration. I will also say that, like it or not, what Phil is saying about American atrocities committed in various parts of our world is true.
I only want to ask, if all it is is a "circle jerk," why would anyone want to be part of it, and why, especially, would they care if they were thrown out? And I agree completely with the point about America's atrocities - half my blog is dedicated to chronicling those atrocities. But I believe it is possible to discuss China without always and reflexively bringing up the iniquities of the US. When asked about what went on at Tiananmen Square, responding with a counter-charge about Kent State doesn't cut it for me (especially since all the records on Kent State are open and the nation still agonizes over it, some 40 years later). Like Joseph, I find Philip brilliant and charming. No arguments there. But as long as he keeps diverting discussions about other countries to discussions about America, he can't escape being seen as a man with an agenda.
Howdy, folks.
Anonymous,
Thank you for making it clear that you do not find me "juvenile," and I am sincere. Your point about airing these kind of Internet cat fights is well-founded, and perhaps I should have left it alone. But, as I say in the piece, loyalty is very important to me. A man who feels the same way was under attack and I chose to defend him.
Mike,
Hunter passed from this life last year and it was a personal loss, he was a friend of mine. It is no insult to have my name or work associated with him, even in the demeaning manner you do here.
To all other commenters:
Everything I wanted to say about this matter is in the piece. I will not participate in any argument that might develop here. I will delete all personal attacks against anyone--other than against me, insults of me will stay up, just unanswered. I will also delete foul language.
All the very best,
Joseph
Dear Richard,
For you my dear friend, I will respond. Your point is very well made; as always, you write better than most of us ever will.
I do not believe that Phil would characterize Chinapol as a circle-jerk, that is my metaphor for what I have seen all too often in academic "round-tables." I am quite certain he would not have joined it if he felt that way.
I would not join because, while I do have one or two friends that I believe are members, or perhaps were members, I really am not certain, that sort of insular "society" is just not my thing. Which was the same way I felt about fraternities when I was in college way too many decades ago.
I am not sure other than my off-color metaphor what we are disagreeing about. Unless it is my central thrust on relativism, which we have very politely disagreed about before, with Ellen not-so-politely agreeing with you as I recall :)
As you say, we both agree on Phil's stellar personal attributes. I can simply explain that when anyone who has chosen to be my friend comes under personal attack, I will defend him. But then you know that. It has been a troublesome trait of mine since before I had cognitive thought. Also, I was a "minority" in too many ways, for too many years, which somewhat explains that instinct.
Anyway, it's great to have you grace these pages, it's been too long.
All the very best,
Joseph
BBI (Beijing Broadcasting Institute) is called China Media University now: the top school in China for journos and TV anchors. Beiwai is, seriously, where they train the spies.
Thanks Joseph; I feel the same about my friends - my first inclination is to defend them. It can be a tricky thing, being friends with people who hold such different beliefs from your own on issues that are cose to their hearts. But if Mary Matlin and James Carville can do it, so can we.
Joseph,
Personally I feel that Cunningham's one-sided criticism of the US through such public mediums as "Dialogue" (if only there was such a thing on it) seeks to help the regime you cannot criticise. There is a difference between not shooting yourself in the foot and pushing an agenda at the cost of helping people that should not be helped.
Cunningham was using a private means of communication that couldn't "get him in trouble". So why was it that he supposedly always seemed to twist the argument to condemn the US? I have critical points of many countries, including my own. When I talk about something, I'm happy to discuss anything. What annoys me about people like him is that they are constantly pushing their POV about one issue. He also lacks perspective - does he really think the US is worse than China overall? Come off it!
He was repeatedly challenged to allow the mailing list to publish his comments, if he was so innocent. The fact he didn't even acknowledge those requests each time they were made indicates the lack of depth to his complaint.
By the way, you work for the Chinese State, but that does not preclude you from talking about any issues inside China, given that many other Chinese academics do. You merely need to structure your points carefully.
I don't go to websites about the Iraqi War and say things like "yeah, but look at China!" That wouldn't make any sense. This works both ways. I'm not concerned about the situation here in China because I am an American that wants to "keep China down." I'm concerned about the situation here because there are a lot of things that happen that are unjust, and that people are unable to talk about in an open manner. Now matter how Yang Rui or P.J. slice it, that's sad, and the only losers are the Chinese people themselves.
I agree with kevin 100%.
What's sick is that Cunningham's help to the State's policy of lies and deceit can't ever hurt him, because he toes the line. Whereas ordinary Chinese suffer as a result because there isn't enough pressure to have their problems publicly discussed.
The glowing asides about Yang Rui keep me from taking this defense seriously. I have never witnessed a more biased interview style than his, and cannot watch more than a few minutes of his show anymore. It's great that you're loyal to Phil, your friend. But no one on C-pol seems to be attacking him personally. He has simply been asked to leave a privately run BBS list after he disagreed with the moderator about the ground rules for discussion. I might be mistaken, but my impression is that it is Phil C. who has made this a public grudge match that it did not have to be. There should be room to discuss the biases of Westerners looking at China, but this might be the wrong context for that.
I also disagree with the use of "left" in this essay. Of course, all such labels are essentially arbitrary and are mainly ways in which people attempt to represent themselves, but I find nothing remotely leftist about appearing on CCTV or hanging out with the Ch-gov. If I had to attach an arbitrary label to the gov and their supporters or cohorts, it would certainly have to be rightist, given thelack of public services, alliance with big business to suppress people, the cut-throat Darwinist economic system, and monotonous nationalist/ chauvinistic BS that passes for a "press" here.
I agree with the posters who say this incident is nothing special and the airing of it in the public domain could be done millions of times a day for millions of forums and mailing lists.
I moderated mailing lists in the past, and sometimes people were kicked off and they took it very personally. As the moderator of these mailing lists I had my own reasons for sometimes kicking people off and it is usually not because of one incident, but the gathering of many incidents over time.
It seems that this Chinapol list is meant for open discussion, so without knowing full the moderator's reasons for kicking this fellow off the list, everybody just sounds juvenile (as one poster rightfully says) trying to argue for/against it.
In the end, while everybody leaps to the rescue of the fellow kicked off the list - I do not know him but I like Joseph's writings so I guess I would like this fellow - it in many ways makes this fellow look bad. Ultimately, the fellow should have walked away from the list and everyone involved with prolonging this entire charade should write aout other things.
Final note - Yang Rui seems smart but is a horrible person to be asking questions on TV.
Charlie
Note: Frank, The Admiral of China Moon http://chinamoon.blogsource.com/ had some problems placing his comment in this thread and asked if I would do it for him--it is my pleasure, sir.
Ahem... I'm sure my opinion will count for naught but...
Though I have not met Mr. 'C', I have read (ohmygod) a lot of the posts, his and commentators, on two specific subjects.
1.) Chinapol- My opinion. He's right. He was wrongly excluded.I belive it is backed by gov't. History (and political NGO newsletters) is written by the victor.No Mainland Chinese equals no local (Note: I did not say informed) opinions about China's political scene. If you don't have ANY of that input, what's point. It just becomes a newsletter full of conjecture, written, subscribed to, and read by a bunch of guys who come here once in a while to buy cheap DVD and score some cheap...ah...massages.
2.) Mr. "C" does seem, as Richard put it, to hold the USA to a higher standard than China, when speaking publicly. I find, in particular, it could be a little offensive to some Western viewers, for Mr. "C" to slam the US gov't, while mimicking the 3 monkeys when it comes to China's internal political situation.
Having said that, Mr. "C" does in fact fulfill his destiny, and duty, as an American, by speaking his mind, AS he chooses, WHEN he chooses, WITH conviction.
You cannot condem him as anti-American, when he behaves as an American SHOULD, and CAN do, and when given half a chance, WILL do.
You may even want to resort to McCarthyism, by complaining that he is too "nice" to China, and the Chinese government's sensibilities.But folks think about it, all American's know that road is the wrong one to get on. Glass houses...rocks...get the picture?
In the end, as gentlemen and gentlewomen, the only civil thing to do is agree or agree to disagree with Mr. "C". Or we can argue with him. But if you choose the latter, let us do it either in private email, or online with some sense of etiquette (like Richard and others), or even better... Invite the man for dinner or a nice brandy...That my friends, is the civilized way to have an argument...Especially after a a nice meal...
'Nuff said the Admiral
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